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Response to [Name Deleted]
I respond to another response, and more!

By:David K. Every
©Copyright 1999

These are still just my opinions of what has happened (with the facts of the events). There are two sides to every story -- this is mine.

History of what's' been going on

I had a little battle in the recent past with [Name-Deleted].

It seems that [Name-Deleted] felt that it was his god given right to tell Apple how to run their business, and criticize them constantly in the "name of love". He felt it was OK to stick his nose in their business, and criticize the company, the individuals in the company, harm almost everyone associated with the company, and to just be a know-it-all jerk. (I can respect know-it-all jerks, if they really do "know-it-all" -- he does not). I decided that a taste of that (in return) was long overdue, and wrote an article about him (all truthful and accurate to the best of my knowledge) titled [Article Title Deleted].

His response was to write an article saying that I got some dates wrong -- when I never mentioned dates (just time lines). I would give you the URL, but the article has been altered in a pathetic attempt to rewrite history.

I responded (by explaining what my point had been), and mentioned the dates and time-line as I remember them. This article available is at - [Article2 Title Deleted]. His corrections were in error - twice; once for missing the point, the other because he had gotten his dates wrong. Many others emailed me that this was not the first time that [Name-Deleted] had revised history to suit his needs. I commented on the flood of email I was getting -- (supporting my opinions of this guy ). I noticed that almost all the mail I received seemed to point out the same thing -- that he had pissed off almost Everyone in the entire industry (if my email was an accurate sampling).

Then I started getting CC'ed (courtesy copied) by some people sending email to [Name-Deleted]. Some were older complaints that people had with this person, and had little to do with me (they were just looking to commiserate). Some eMails were nasty, some not -- many felt that my psychoanalysis explained his motivations and actions.

I sent [Name-Deleted] email apologizing for the nasty-grams (trying to diffuse the situation). I was not trying to start a spam or hate-mail campaign -- just express my opinions. I still felt everything I said was true, but did not intend him to be blasted in email.

He responded that if I really meant my apology, that I'd delete my article. I explained that time is linear, and you can't take things back -- and you shouldn't "take back" things that you mean. I was offering an apology for the reaction, but NOT a retraction for what I had been said (which was the truth -- IMHO). He suggested we talk on the phone, so I sent my phone number and we talked.

He was very insulted at the whole concept of me "getting in his business" -- yet he refused to see any relationship between me doing it to him, and him doing the same to Apple (or its employees). I realized I was not going to get anywhere, and the stories of his massive self-centeredness were understated. So we agreed to disagree, and let the issue lie. He and I agreed we would NOT provoke each other, or attack each other any more. He sounded mature enough to be able to just "let it go".

I had achieved what I wanted (a reminder of what it's like to be on the receiving end of bad analysis -- the difference between mine and his being that at least mine was accurate, just non flattering observations). I was less vitriolic in my response than he was in his many years of bashing, but I was willing to call it "even". He had made himself into a public figure, and needed to learn a little responsibility (IMHO). I don't like doing this stuff, I just feel it is sometimes necessary (1). I don't want my site turning into some hate fest trying to correct all the egomaniacs or blow-hards in the world. There are more of them than me, so I would lose.

(1) I taught martial arts for years (and was a student for years before that). Going through the ranks I was chosen as the class "goon", later on I had to employ them.

What that means is that when someone is not using control (failing to understand the ramifications of their power), someone else had to spar with them, and reflect the same amount of control that they used. If the person without control escalated; then the goon had to reflect that, until at some point the controlless ones' brains kicked in (or got kicked in) over the protests of their ego. They had to learn that it wasn't worth it -- or more instruction would be dangerous to society. The poor goon had to take the pain of sparring with someone who had no understanding of his power -- the goon had to do what no one wanted to do, which was harm someone (by reflecting what was directed at him or others).

The lesser student, at first, blamed the goon, not realizing that they were only a reflection of themselves (but better at it). Eventually, most would catch on (though it often takes a few tries), those that wouldn't learn would leave. It was not pleasant duty (because everyone loses in a fight). Whether the controlless one learns or leaves, the class is better for it.

That is how I feel dealing with many of the so called "journalists" who are just bashers in disguise, who are not able to get over themselves or over past "wrongs." I must respond, because it is my duty to the class (as I see it). I don't enjoy it, and in fact it makes my Web Site a much less pleasant place than I would have it otherwise. But it has to be done.

My point was made, and I was ready to let it all go (as agreed). Just drop the topic, point made. Let it rest.

That was until other things kept "coming up."


First [Name-Deleted] went and changed his response to me, so that it read "[SITE NAME DELETED]". He stated this was because he didn't want to validate me or my site. Petty. I have returned the "favor" in this article as a satire of that immaturity. Not exactly "letting it go"... then more happened.

Carl gets Screwed

Someone named Carl expressed his opinion to [Name-Deleted]. I got Carl's letter sent to me from [Name-Deleted] telling ME to deal with the hate that I created. Excuse me, but the response was to the actions of [Name-Deleted] - not me. (I started corresponding with Carl anyway, trying to diffuse things.) What happened next was the most petty, cowardly thing I have heard of on the internet to date.

Carl's writing style is vague -- but the email was a short was a semi-constructive, semi-flaming letter, and could easily be taken multiple ways. Instead of responding to Carl, or ignoring the mail, instead of assuming the best and giving Carl the benefit of the doubt -- instead of taking the "high road," (as [Name-Deleted] hypocritically tells other to do); someone's ego was so huge or anger so strong (at anyone that challenges or questions him), that he felt he must email that persons BOSS (actually the CEO of the company) in an obvious attempt to have Carl fired! Imagine attacking someone's livelihood because they disagree with you -- all while telling everyone you value free speech! That was the low-road.

Then the private email was sent out to a large, public, international mail list ([Name-Deleted] told me 130,000 people, but I find that unlikely) -- which generated lots of mail to Carl. Not a nice thing to do. Carl had not started a spam campaign, nor even acted in one -- he just expressed his opinions based on an article he read.

Then Carl's letter was posted publicly at ATTACKS, and torn apart and misrepresented. Carl had no way to respond. In that article, it was implied that there was an "organized campaign" to attack poor [Name-Deleted]. (Of course nothing was further from the truth, but how do you convince the paranoid that "they aren't all out to get you!"?)

This whole attack was really directed at me (by harming someone else). I know this because of the nastygrams I kept getting from [Name-Deleted], telling me so and pointing to the URL.

Carl pleaded to me to post his side of the story, since he does not have a web site to air his side of the story. I had said to [Name-Deleted] that I would not attack more -- but that was also per agreement that we would BOTH just "let it go." I pondered this for a while, not want to escallate things, but then the other events of this article came down (read on). After all these other issues, I knew I had to offer Carl a place to air his grievances, and comment on the events that had transpired (this article).

Carl's full transcript of his side of the story is available here - Carl's Saga.

Other Solutions?

I tried many other solutions, before resorting to this, but could find none.

I asked for [Name-Deleted] to apologize for what he did to Carl, and admit that it was wrong. To "back off" and let him be. He was harming Carl out of misdirected anger at me (or Apple). I was responded to with a curt response along the lines of "It's legal, besides -- what software have you written for the Mac". Like shipping commercial Software is justification for being a complete asshole! Just because a guy writes one or two good programs (or has others do it for him), does not make him an expert on everything, nor forgive him his sins.

A personal friend (Mark Murphy) had been separately communicating with [Name-Deleted] about what was being done to Carl. (Mark initiated this on his own, and told me about it afterwards). I was observing, and hoping that an outside party would help [Name-Deleted] to "see the error of his ways". It did not. That correspondence is at the end of this article; [Name-Deleted] proves that he never thinks he is wrong (nor will admit it when he is).


I also started getting more letters from [Name-Deleted], and started getting emails from both of [Name-Deleted]'s allies. Like this quote -

"I am fascinated that you ... miss out on the fact that [Name-Deleted] doesn't hate Apple at all."

"If we can't together figure out how to help Apple survive... it will sadden [Name-Deleted]. You need to understand that first, before you criticize his pointed comments which are intended not as rocks thrown by a vandal, but rather as the loving criticism of a parent, an older brother, [spouse,] or a friend."

I do not miss that point at all. I just don't think that loving parents, brothers or friends should throw rocks like vandals, and camouflage those actions as "love". I believe that [Name-Deleted] does care for Apple. But my response is as follows -

I think love and hate are very close (intense) emotions. I believe that he loves Apple, as an abusive person loves the victim of his abuse (wife, child, parent, etc.). There is love there, but it does not outweigh the harm. I can sense the passion -- but that does not change the hurt. I don't think the love outweighs the frustration at not having complete control. But how can you truly love, if you haven't learned to let the other have their independence? Maybe this person needs the fulfillment of putting down others (to feel superior), or maybe their ego makes it "just too hard" for them to stop. Either way, we should not stand by and ignore this sort of relationship! The abusive person always blames the victim with, "I wouldn't hit you if you weren't so stupid!". He needs to be reminded, by outside sources, of what he is doing. He believes he loves -- but that doesn't change the actions. Who cares if he contributes to the financial well-being, if he harms the well-being over all, and the cost to the souls is much too high?!

Notice that unlike [Name-Deleted], I do not post the authors name and email address, nor do I call their employer and complain. I only quote some of their letter. I also do not make any efforts to twist their words, or interpret their meaning. (I also took the least "jabbing" quotes). Which is the higher road?

History gets revised

Instead of "letting things go", as agreed upon, [Name-Deleted] rewrote his response to me. This altered work was camouflaged as a "dove of peace" Response to MacKiDo, but really just an excuse for masturbation, and a plea for pity. It talked about "supporting others" -- yet I see no support of Apple or the Mac. It talks of "brotherhood," -- yet during this same time, poor Carl was learning what brothers sometimes do to brothers, in [Name-Deleted]'s book of brotherhood. I saw the words, but not the deeds -- and in fact I saw hostility directed towards Apple, myself, and Carl! I see no "working together" when one person can't let something go, keeps sending me email trying to argue points that we agreed to drop, or writes and edits articles on that same topic. But I would have ignored the response, even though THIS link was sent to me with yet ANOTHER nasty letter from [Name-Deleted]... but there's more.

Another article?

Then yet another article was directed towards me. MovingIntoTheFuture. Not a bad article (in words), if you overlook the self egrandizing and whiny tone to it. (A major point of my original article, that started all this, was that this person is self egrandizing and whiny). The words sounded nice, but I do not judge a man on what he says; I judge a man on what he DOES! Saying you are "moving on", while not behaving that way, does NOT convince me. Saying that you love and support Apple or the Mac, while having your name in Every other trash piece against them does not convince me either. Saying "you support the Mac, but you are porting to Windows because MS is so benevolent, while Apple is stupid," is not a way to convince anyone that you believe what you are saying. It is not the porting that is wrong, it is the way the message is delivered.

As for the foofy love-fest part of these articles?! I learned of them through nastygrams from [Name-Deleted], saying --

"What have you done to boost the Mac that compares to what I have done? A couple of hours away from the turmoil woke me up to this. You and your crowd are the whiners."

Sound to me like someone needs some Prozak! Certainly the private words to me, were far different than the "public image" this person was trying to project. The articles were camouflage for the truth (nor reflections of it). His personal digs in private conversations and email were not what he was expressing publicly. What am I supposed to think about this duplicity?

Letting Go?

Does that sound like someone who lets things go? It does not to me. Every action I have seen, and all the people I hear, support what I said all along. They all have stories to tell, but I don't think my sites purpose is to bash [Name-Deleted], but I will respond when I feel I have to. I could turn my site into a whole site of testimonials AGAINST [Name-Deleted], or a self-worship site where I post my own emails -- but I have better things to do.

However, I will not stand by and let a Web-Bully prey on those who have no defense (Carl), without at least protesting about it, and letting the other side express their views (especially when Carl attack was in proxy, directed at me).

Instead of letting go, there were immature reactions. Lashing out, and attempting to harm a relative innocent (Carl). Then a pathetic attempt to play "poor" martyr and generate sympathy with such stuff as mentioning grandparents flight from Nazi's. Poor [Name-Deleted] was being attacked for his love of Apple, and for being the only one to say anything. (I hear violins). Of course there were already thousands of reporters (and millions of people) bashing on Apple, and he was being attacked because what he was saying was wrong!

I extended the branch of peace in an email (first). I tolerated personal jabs and insults in a phone conversation (without response). I tolerated self-stroking articles (directed to me) about "self love and self-worship" that claimed to take the high road. I got surly eMails sent to me from [Name-Deleted], who agreed we should "let it go.", but refused to do so. I saw innocents (relatively) attacked out of spite and revenge, way beyond what was called for -- in the name of "peace and the high road".

Since agreeing to "let it go", I have done NOTHING. Yet [Name-Deleted]'s millionaires ego can't let it go. He can't admit he is wrong, when he so obviously IS. He has to hurt and attack, and prod me until I respond -- while trying to play friend or "big man" in the public's eye. If someone tells me they "offer their hand in friendship", then they try to bite mine when I extend it -- I don't get a good feeling of sincerity (maybe it's just me).

Letting go is not trying to generate allies and sympathy on your page, or by playing martyr or philosopher (he's a hypocrite at one, and the other he's just bad at). No article was necessary to BE the bigger man, the only reason to write his article was to PLAY LIKE you're the bigger man. It was just insulting. If he was the bigger man, he would have let this go, and let go of his resentment of Apple and its employees because of what happened 7 years ago!

I understand escalation. I understand ego. I tolerate a lot in the name of "letting things go" and letting someone save face. Just to move on. But how long must this go on before I respond?


[Name-Deleted] would rather blame me, than think about his actions, and this response. He accused me and my site of being just a bunch of evil mindless hate mongers "like Guy Kawasaki and the evangelists." I think that Guy and the evagelista's are nothing of the sort, nor are the patrons of my site. (But for the record, I do not currently subscribe to evangelist). We are DEFENDING what we believe in from attacks. I tried to deal with this person, but he is so egocentric that he can't see where anyone else is coming from -- nor does he see that what he did to Carl was not only unfair and mean spirited, but it violated every rule of netiquette, and verified EVERYTHING I had said about him (and more). [Name-Deleted] could only talk about the higher path -- not actually follow it. His deeds show his true persona.

I consider posting email a taboo (unless authorized). It is very bad netiquette. But [name deleted] stated quite clearly to me, that "unless a clear arrangement has been made NOT to, then it is OK".


Correspondence from Mark Murphy to

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997
From: "Mark F. Murphy" <[email protected]>
Subject: Winer's Revenge

I was literally *shocked* that Dave Winer made public, a personal and private piece of e-mail from a Symantec employee! Not only that, but he sent e-mail to Gordon Eubanks, the CEO of Symantec, concerning this private e-mail as if the sender had just committed a crime.

Curiously, in Winer's public posting of this private message he removes the name of the referenced site. The opening line reads:

"I noticed that you corrected [site name deleted] on some time issues"....

I'm making an assumption here, of course, that Winer commented out the site's name. If this assumption is correct, how strange it is. Dare I say that I find Winer's morals of publicly posting a *private* message while withholding a referenced *public* site within that private message to be disturbing.

Will I also be labeled a flamer or a spammer by Winer because I dare to have an opinion about his conduct or his arguments where he makes them?

Winer goes on to declare that Rik Myslewski called him a chimpanzee and comments [it] "takes my breath away". Sure it would.... if Myslewski actually said it. However, Myslewski said no such thing.

Myslewski actually states that he received e-mail from a man by the name of Jim Bryson who suggests "if MacUser could use the word 'chimpanzee' in place of the word 'analyst' in any future articles."

Later in the article, Myslewski wonders if Jesse Berst, Editorial Director of ZDNet's AnchorDesk, has fallen under the spell of "self-appointed World's Greatest Apple Expert" Dave Winer.

That's about the extent of Myslewski's reference to Winer.

Either Winer didn't read the piece carefully, or once again I find his morals disturbing. Winer is publicly accusing Myslewski of something he did not say.

I heavily disagree with Winer's observations on Rhapsody. Not only do I disagree, but I think his assertions and premises for his conclusion are weak. However, we aren't discussing the technical issues of Apple' next OS at this point, are we? We are talking about the *public* actions of Winer. His lack of respect for a person's privacy who has sent him e-mail is very disturbing. His vengeful actions of labeling this private message an organized flame and attack, and outing this sender to his employer should not be tolerated within the on-line community.

Dave Winer sends a clear message. If you disagree with him and send private e-mail, be prepared for him to practically charge you with attacking him and crying to your employer. Well Mr. Winer.... go ahead and complain to my employer... I work for myself. So, you have no one to tattle to.

As far as I can tell, there's no "organized" attack on Dave Winer. There is a lot of public opinion that thinks his views are inaccurate. Not only that, there's concerns that Winer tries to position himself as a MacOS supporter when his comments are otherwise. This concerns Macintosh developers and users.

For this, Dave Winer labels us all flamers and attackers while not addressing the *issues* and not coming to the conclusion that he is possibly wrong.

Does there need to be an "organized" attack on Dave Winer? Absolutely NOT. His own actions and comments will be his own undoing. As they say, "give a man enough rope and he might end up hanging himself with it." No one needs to help supply any rope to Mr. Winer.... he seems to be on a shopping spree for his own mass quantity!

Mark F. Murphy, Director Software Development
Tyrell Software Corp

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997
From: "Mark F. Murphy" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: RE: Winer's Revenge

I was literally *shocked* that Dave Dave Winer wrote back:

Honestly, the message didn't say it was private, nor did I have any responsibility to keep it private.

Even more concern for me.... and a good shake of my finger to you saying "Shame on you".

Anyone who's supposedly been on the internet or been in electronic communications, as long as you have, knows that for public forums such as yours, it's customary to ask permission for publication. Something you appear not to have done. Sending it to the guy's boss is even a worse offense.

If you truly feel you have no "responsibility to keep it private", then how can you perform the victim act? Did you and Alsop have a pity party at lunch together?

My point.... don't pretend to have an opinion about something if you can't take others potentially being critical of your writings.... or of whatever attitude you may take.

In your latest article (a rewrite) "Response to Mackido" you say:

"I offer my hand in friendship. What's your response? Love or fear. Which is moving you right now? I believe in you!"

While these are wonderful words... I think there's one big thing you missed Mr. Winer.... A big "I'm sorry" to Carl of Symantec.

If you do that.... you've got a winner.... and a more powerful start that will put teeth into the beautiful words I've quoted above from you.

Mark F. Murphy, Director Software Development
Tyrell Software Corp

It was only after these email's (and more) were CC'ed to me, and my own requests for apologizing to Carl were denied, that I wrote this post. Of course it will be seen as an attack, instead of a response to one. <sigh> Someone is still in the "lesser student" mode, and their ego is not letting them see the ramifications of their actions.

Created: 07/21/97
Updated: 11/09/02

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